Crystal Cooke, the director of diversity and inclusion at the AICPA and CIMA, discusses what the profession needs to do to move the dial on diversity in accounting.
Transcription:
Dan Hood (
Welcome to On the Air with Accounting Today. I'm editor in chief Dan Hood. The accounting profession has been talking about diversity, equity, and inclusion for 20 years or more, and yet there's still a very strong sense that it has a long way to go. Given all that, we have with us Crystal Cooke, she's the director of diversity and inclusion at the AICPA and CIMA, to talk about the profession's DEI journey, where it, where it needs to go and how to get there. Crystal, thanks for joining us.
Crystal Cooke (
Thank you, Dan. I appreciate it.
Dan Hood (
It's a big topic, so we may as well just dive right in. Maybe with some level-setting: How would you describe the sort of current state of DEI in the accounting profession?
Crystal Cooke (
So that's like a loaded question, but...
Dan Hood (
Wildly unfair!
Crystal Cooke (
<laugh> .... but I think the DEI in the profession is actually growing. I would say that we are making improvements with our latest trends report. We have seen slight improvements. Are they worth a hundred percent celebrating? I don't know that I would be running through the streets, waving my hands saying that we've solved the problem, but we are going in the right direction. I think this refocus that we've had over the last couple of years, we're starting to see fruits of some of that. I think people know that the accounting and finance profession is not gonna improve or not gonna have changed unless we do something about it. And they have this strong desire now out here to get out here and make change and people are doing more initiatives, hiring more people who focus on this. And I think we know the importance and we know that we have to do better.
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And so I would say I think we are going in the right direction. Are we all still doing the right things? I think we still have work to do. I think we still have to look at our diversity in brick down by demographic. What are we doing for one diverse group that we may not be doing for other? You'll see in our transport that a lot of the growth is in the Asian community and black community is very flat. And so what are we doing in one that we should be doing in the other? And how are we equitable across the whole platform of diversity? I know women, gender is doing great and those numbers are improving. And so how do we apply what we're doing to gender, to ethnicity? And so those kind of things. So I think we're going in the right direction, but definitely still much work to be done and much effort and collaboration needed.
Dan Hood (
Well, as you say, and one of the main reasons why that was such a terrible loaded question to throw at you is the huge range of areas that diversity covers. The diversity of diversity. When you talk about gender ethnic identity, and then people are also talking now about things like neurodiversity, economic background. We keep adding more and more areas,
Crystal Cooke (
Disabilities, all that.
Dan Hood (
Exactly, exactly. <laugh> and then as you say, right, women, tremendous success in getting women into the profession. Usually the numbers say roughly 50% of
Crystal Cooke (
People, 50 almost,
Dan Hood (
But then they're not doing as well in the leadership not rising as we would expect them to help them to leadership positions. So there's a lot of moving targets, a lot of moving pieces. So it was an unfair question, but I It's good hear at least some progress but we wanna keep an eye on where we need to go. So with that, maybe we could talk about I described it as a DEI journey. Maybe we could talk about, get a sense of all the different parts of diversity. Maybe we talk about how the profession can move towards greater dei in stages.
Crystal Cooke (
I think there's definitely stages and unfortunately all these stages need to probably be happening on parallel track <laugh>, because there are so many things that influence the overall diversity spectrum. And I break those up into probably four primary stages. And I think the first stage to me is high school, that very young awareness stage and introducing diverse students to this career path we have in order to widen the pipeline and get more people in diversity, they need to come more and need to come in at the beginning stages. And so how do we find more diverse students? How do we bring more awareness to students who may not even have this career path in their minds? I know we've, our research shows that unless you've either know someone who's an accountant or you took an accounting class in high school, which a lot of high schools don't have, how those are the primary ways you'd gone to the program.
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If you don't hear either of those, you probably won't even hear about it until you into college. Then it's too late. And so now you're competing with all these other STEM careers and doing those kind of things. Although hopefully accounting will be in STEM soon. And so I think that's probably the first room of what we should be working on is bringing more awareness. The second piece is now once you're in college and you're studying accounting and you've now chosen the career, do you see yourself in the career? Does the person in front of the room teaching you look like you do? They, does the person teaching you make you feel the enthusiasm for the profession? I know many students, college students say that they went into accounting because their professor made that course. Something that they were like, This career is for me, I I'm definitely made it fondly.
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They found creative ways to teach it and they saw the benefits of the profession. So there's also that piece, that's the next layer. And so then once you enter the profession again, there's that sense of belonging. Do I feel like I fit here? Can I see myself? Are there leaders that I can aspire to? Do I feel like I have This is a safe space for me to be myself. All those things have to happen in concert. Are people, are my managers being inclusive of me? Are they showing me how I fit into this picture that needs to, that's the whole retention. Am I getting feedback that I'm supposed to be getting? Am I on the track to promotion like everybody else around me? So all those things have to happen. And then the final piece I think is, are they the top? Are there people who can lift down and pull them up with them if they're not, no one sponsoring them.
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If there's no one looking out for them, they might feel like there's just no reason. So why would I, even for us to work on the pipeline, we can get 'em all in, but it doesn't stop there. Once you get them in the door. Now how are you supporting them? How are you making sure they're successful? How are you building your workplace in a way that supports their growth? And it is different when you're a minority. There are different challenges. We did a session with some young professionals and you would not believe how mental health rose to the top of the list as a challenge that our minorities are go feeling in this profession. And that's probably beyond our profession. But there's dealing with all that. And in a place where you are the only one in many rooms, how do you navigate that? Especially having to understand what's going on in the world, You're having it at home, you're going to the workplace and you still feel like an outsider. So it's that sense of belonging, inclusion, that's that piece. And so all these things we need to work on to, they all kind of feed off of each other to make a great overall profession, if that makes sense. That's what a long way to answer your question, <laugh>,
Dan Hood (
Right? Well, but it gives a sense of the work ahead and that it is it sounds like a lot of work in a lot of different areas. On the other hand, I think of suggesting it's a little bit of a virtuous cycle. If you get any of those things working, they will help all the other aspects. Absolutely. If you get people in diverse people in when they're younger, they're more likely to become an accounting student in college. They're more likely to stick with the firm, et cetera, et cetera. But still remains. There's a lot to be done. Are there any areas of those, I mean, I realize that they all, as you said, sort of fit together. Are there any things you think need to really be done first? Is there anything you could pick out or if you could choose something for everybody to do first or the perfection to do first, Is there anything like that? Or is it really, we've gotta work on all those things at the same time?
Crystal Cooke (
I mean, if I had to pick my top one, it would probably be inclusion in the workplace. I mean, it's all about, I think in younger generations, they don't even wanna work for a workplace that doesn't look like the communities around them in the world. They don't wanna go to places that are just homogeneous. They wanna see difference, They value that. And so if we can't fix that, we're not even gonna attract the pipeline <laugh>. So it's like that to me is, if I had to pick one, that would be my first, and then we can then help working on selling the profession. We can't sell a profession that we don't have <laugh> to the pipeline. And so we need to get us work, do our homework, and build our workplaces to be what they should look like first.
Dan Hood (
So would you say that's the biggest hurdle? Is that creating that sense of inclusion within firms and maybe within accounting departments or tax departments?
Crystal Cooke (
I think that is definitely a hurdle. I think if you ask a lot of minorities why they leave the profession is that they don't feel like they belong. They don't have a feel like they have a place for them. And I don't know if I, I guess it D depends on who you ask, who the biggest hurdle is. But that's definitely up there. It's sense of belonging and value and feeling like you have a place and that you're heard, your voice is heard. And so I think that is something that we need to work on. And it's hard to sometimes teach that, right? That's sometimes a mind a mindset shift for people on how to do that. We're not taught how to be inclusive. That's not something that's naturally, I had to, I was taking a diversity inclusion course when they were giving us tips on how to be inclusive.
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And I was like, I never even thought about this <laugh>. Like it's not something that's a part of your manager training. And I think it would behoove all of us to offer that to our staff to help build them that skillset. And I think we unconsciously are exclusive and we don't realize it. And so some people are conscious, but then I think the majority of us are doing it unconsciously and we don't realize, And then people are afraid to speak up. They don't feel like they're empowered to speak up. And then it just continues. And nothing never gets fixed. And I think we need to start having those hard conversations and saying, stepping up and saying, I don't feel a part. And offering ways to change that dynamic.
Dan Hood (
Well, I think it's interesting cause there's a degree to which a huge amount of the work that needs to be done is very personal. It's very much about, as you say, most people not say they're being exclusive cuz then they'll feel like I'm totally inclusive. But they don't realize how they're being exclusive in the sense of you have to reach out, there has to be a certain amount of reaching out or understanding. And it's
Crystal Cooke (
A two way street.
Dan Hood (
But it can't be passive. It can't be just, I'm not doing anything wrong. You have to reach out. And in everything you talked about, there's a lot of roles for pretty much everyone in the profession. A lot of work for everyone in the profession to do. And so I wanna dive into that in a minute. But first off, we're gonna take a quick break. All right. And we're back talking with Crystal Cook of the A, a, CPA A and SEMA about the profession's DEI journey. And one of the things we talked about was the fact that you brought up is the fact that there's a lot of areas that need to be improved. And each one of those will in turn then help all the other areas. But there's still a lot of areas and a lot of parts of the profession, academia the leaders of the profession, people in firms at all levels, managerial, administrative, straight down to the responsibility to be inclusive just on a day to day basis. But maybe is there a single group or any single group that you would say can do more, has more, or can move the needle further? Someone else? Is it firm leaders? Is it leadership or profession? Is it academia? Are we really all gotta pull our weight?
Crystal Cooke (
Yeah, I think this is, again, I loaded question <laugh>, but I
Dan Hood (
Got nothing but nothing but trick questions. I
Crystal Cooke (
Strongly believe that we all have a role. Everyone in the organization has a role. And even, like I told you before, academia has a role. The leaders in the organization have a role, however, and even down to the intern is what we like to say. Everyone has a role in making the workplace more diverse and inclusive and equitable. There's practices that can be made to make sure that all that's happening. However, saying that leadership has to empower everyone below them. Leadership has to lead by example. Leadership has to put the approval to put these things in action and make it a priority and show how important it is to the organization. And they have basically the power to say, we're doing this or else, You know what I mean? I think that's, that's the push that it needs. That's the focus that it needs. That's the influence that it needs.
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And without that, sometimes a lot of the DEI programs fall and their initiatives fall short because they don't, the people who are leaving them aren't empowered. They don't have that backing and they fall short and no one listens to them. They make things voluntary, the people who need to go. And it's just all those kind of things. And they don't have the support. They need people or resources, financial resources. And so things don't move like they should. But if the leader of the organization makes it a priority, is vocal about it as being a priority, shows up on these things, holds their organization accountable, then I think that helps movement. If they hold their other leaders accountable, then that makes movement. And so they have the most, I think, influential role, but everyone in the organization has a role. And it's not just the DEI leaders role. If I cannot stress that enough, they're there to lead the work, but they cannot do it alone.
Dan Hood (
Everyone needs to play their part. Well, I think you've sort of jumped head to my next question. So hopefully it will seem like No, no, that's fine. It'll seem like less of a trick when I throw it at your less little loaded question. But it's really the advice you would have for firms. And obviously it sounds like one of the most important parts advice is that it needs to be owned at the top. That leadership needs to be involved and be holding people accountable and make it a real priority for the firm. And one thing I always like to mention is, right, and you brought it up, is the tremendous power for retention for diversity to be sort pragmatic about it, right? This isn't just a question of what's right or wrong, it's hugely important given that firms are desperate to find and retain staff. Every firm owner we talk to is talking about the fact that they cannot find and retain enough people. And this is a tremendous tool for that. So maybe apart from saying leadership needs to own it and hold people accountable, is there other advice you would give firms that wanna move the needle on de? And I
Crystal Cooke (
Think it goes back to what I was saying earlier about the inclusivity practices and how our managers don't necessarily know how to be inclusive and are our managers. Our managers are the reason, so that when people leave, it's because of their manager. It's not because of what the CEO did, or maybe if they did something dramatic
Dan Hood (
Egregious really be bad.
Crystal Cooke (
But usually it's happening on their day to day basis. And that manager level person is who we need to be focusing on. They need to learn how to make sure that they're being inclusive of their staff. How are they giving them the right feedback? Are they doing things that, are they making sure that they're giving work equitably amongst the team? Like that that person is the one that we need to help groom into that inclusive manager. Are they checking down their staff every day to make sure that they feel like they're empowered to ask questions and not be sitting behind their desks scared and therefore not performing? And are we checking to see if those who are we understanding the culture of our diverse staff, they may operate in a way that's different from you culturally. And if you don't understand that, you might look at it as a negative when it just might be different.
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And that's kind of the culture. That's the kind of mind shift, set shift that I was telling you that we don't naturally have these traits, I don't think. And those have to be learned. And if I think as workplaces, if we wanna help grow our staff to be the inclusive leaders that we need, we need to help with those trainings and help them get there and help show the importance of that. And then that has to be modeled at every level. And so that's what I think, I think. And then again, that whole spectrum of things, if we can fix the retention and then we can see more diversity throughout the organization, which means we'll eventually see more diversity in leadership and people who are coming in the pipeline will see themselves in the people who are at the workplace. And it all kind of works together.
Dan Hood (
Yeah, well just, I mean, all leads leads back to that even for the teenagers, as you say, huge number of accounts will say it was my grandfather or the guy down the block or my aunt or whatever. And the more people we can retain in the working years of a career in accounting, the more we can draw in at the preparatory stages, the high school and college level. And I think you've pointed out some of the things that individuals can do to model that inclusive behaviors. Any other advice you would give for individual accountants who are thinking, I wanna move the needle, but I'm not a manager, for instance, or I only manage a few people, I can't really determine the direction of my firm, other, what can they do?
Crystal Cooke (
So I think right now, I think the greater profession needs help <laugh> as a profession at whole. And I think that piece, when people ask me what can I be doing as an individual? I think it's going to your high schools, go to junior achievement, go to all these organizations that have college prep and make sure they have accounting on the list. I think we are at the A I C P A through Kristin Hunter, who is on our student initiatives team, has created this initiative called Accounting Opportunities Week. And what she's doing is spearheading this program where we all go into the accounting, go into your local high school and right now we're doing it, we're piling it for a week. The first week in November if you contact your state society, your state society will have the details around it. We're working in partnership with them, but two times a year in the future, we hope in the spring and the fall that we can all spend a week going back into high schools.
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Now, can you go into the hospitals outside of those weeks? Yes. But we wanna have some targeted time periods where we're all putting in our concerted efforts together and collaborating. And that is going into those schools and helping their students understand about accounting. And it's basic accounting. We're not talking about the CPA and getting the license and all that. It's just what is accounting and how can it benefit you? How can you use it? It's the language of business. This is a career that you cannot go wrong with if you are trying to be, and especially in the business order. If you even want, you wanna own your own business one day, how great would it be to have this counting in your belt to be able to operate and know how things working. So it's kind of going back in and just putting it on the radar so students can start considering it.
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And then for the whole diversity part, I think it's also make a concerted effort to go into those schools that are more diverse, that maybe not be in the affluent, most affluent areas who don't necessarily have all the resources to have an accounting course. Maybe those are the ones who need our help. Those are the ones who are raising their hand. Please come to our career class week and come help us share stories on what a careers are out there. Cause I think accounting is a career that can change people's lives. It's a career that can set them up for success, it can change the final dynamic. And they don't even know about it. They don't even realize all the possibilities. I know it's, people always hear about the tax and the audit side, but there's a whole realm of things that you can do with this degree and as a cpa.
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And so it's that kind of education that I think is missing and selling the profession in a way that makes, that shows its benefits and its excitement and rebranding. I think the goodness of what's in there and all the pathways. And so that's what I tell people. If you want to do something as an individual, that is what you can do. Now, if you're in your workplace, if you wanna do something, raise your hand. <laugh>. If you wanna volunteer to take on something, volunteer, that's a diversity and inclusion initiative, vol. And as an individual, like I said before, take the initiative to implement inclusivity practices and share those with your colleagues. I mean, join your help. Reach out to your DEI Lee and ask, How can I help you? Is there something that I can roll down to my engagement team? It's raising your hand and being a part of the solution. <laugh>, I think is what individuals can do
Dan Hood (
Plenty. And it sounds like there's plenty of opportunities for them to get out there and help.
Crystal Cooke (
Excellent. Absolutely.
Dan Hood (
All right. As we said, it's a big topic. I threw a lot of big questions at you. I appreciate the way you fielded them. Any final thoughts on the Profession's DEI journey?
Crystal Cooke (
No, I think as a final thought, I would just say if you're looking to implement DEI initiatives and you need somewhere to start and you just wanna kind of check the pulse on some things, contact us at the AICPA. We have a whole portfolio of resources available. My d and i team, we focus on four primary areas, ethnic minorities, women, LGBTQ plus, and young members. We have volunteer committees that support all of our work. We're always looking for volunteers, and we always love to hear what workplaces need in these spaces because we wanna support you and help your growth in these spaces. So please let us know. Please reach out and happy to even just have a one-on-one meeting with you to walk through where you are and how we can help, and how we can bolster what you're already working on.
Dan Hood (
Awesome. All right. Plenty of opportunities to help, but also plenty of resources out there available to you. Crystal Cooke, AICPA and CIMA, thank you so much for joining us.
Crystal Cooke (
Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
Dan Hood (
And thank you all for listening. This episode of On the Air was produced by Accounting Today with audio production by Kevin Parise. Rate or review us on your favorite podcast platform and see the rest of our content on accountingtoday.com. Thanks again to our guest, and thank you for listening.