Leaders from the Top 20 Firm talk about how its entrepreneurial, innovative culture drove it from humble beginnings to its current position as one of the most highly regarded in the profession. Current and past CEOs Matt Armanino and Andy Armanino, and the executive director emeritus of the Armanino Foundation, Mary Tressel share some of the elements of the firm's "secret sauce," as detailed in their recent book, "Empowered."
Transcription:
Dan Hood: (
Welcome to On the Air with Accounting Today, I'm editor-in-chief Dan hood. You know, it's not easy to be a success as a pioneering accounting firm, and it's even harder to be successful as a pioneering accounting firm over a long period of time. Now, California-based Top 20 Firm Armanino is well known for exactly that kind of long-term, forward-thinking success. And they recently shared the secrets of their success in a new book called "Empowered," which details the firm's 50 year history and the culture that have made it one of the most admired practices around. Here to talk about all that are the book's authors as the current CEO of Armanino, Matt Armanino — Matt, thanks for joining us.
Matt Armanino: (
Yeah, good to be here.
Dan Hood: (
And the previous CEO, Andy Armanino — Andy. Thanks for joining us. Good to have you back.
Andy Armanino: (
Thank you as well.
Dan Hood: (
And last, but certainly not least, we have Mary Tressel, she's the executive director emeritus of the Armanino Foundation. Mary, thanks for joining us.
Mary Tressel:
Thanks for having us.
Dan Hood:
All right. This is a big, it's a, the firm's been around for a long time. It's done a lot of exciting things, so there's a lot of, a lot to talk about. I'm gonna dive right in, but just asking, you know, what spurred you to write the book and, and what spurs you to write it now, Matt, maybe you can, uh, start us off on this.
Matt Armanino: (
Yeah, it was an idea for a long time. We used to, when Andy was, uh, in the business, uh, we had a, a list on his whiteboard of projects we hoped to undertake someday. And I think when we hit our 50th anniversary, uh, two years ago, we decided it was really time to, to do this, to Chronicle our firm's unique roadmap, sort of the secret sauce, as you said, that has led to our success over the years. I think that was, uh, a key thing. I think the second thing is we really wanted to acknowledge and celebrate all of the, uh, individuals and teens who had contributed to that success. So you, you get that flavor in the book, certainly the beginning of the book in particular, and then, uh, we we've grown so much Dan, as you know, I mean, we've added a thousand new people to our business in the last year alone.
Matt Armanino: (
So we really wanted to inspire our team members and other, you know, future like-minded leaders about what's possible at this incredible, uh, firm. Uh, the last thing I would say is the firm, uh, has a unique culture. It's the bedrock of our success. And the book was really kind of grounded in that we really wanted to, uh, highlight for our people, the key pillars that have, have, uh, driven our success over the years. And we think these are the same components that are going to, um, you know, drive our success in the future. So those are the, the, the motivations as far as, um, uh, I'm concerned.
Dan Hood: (
Andy, how about you? What, uh, when they said, Hey, let's write a book where you're like, yeah. And here's why
Andy Armanino: (
well, kind of Matt's right. We had it up on my whiteboard for quite a while. And I actually remember when I first met Gordon crater from plant Moran back in time and Gordon and I got to talking and he pulled out a book and it was the history of plant Moran. And he talked about the importance of taking a oral tradition and getting it written down. So it would exist going forward. And I thought, you know what, that's a really good idea. And so it went up on my whiteboard and for years it, it sat on the whiteboard and finally it was time to get this done. I think the concept of taking this oral history and for us, we had a great oral history and we tell stories and there was a goodness to that oral history, but we also recognize we didn't wanna lose that. And so it was time to write things down. We think that by writing it down, we've created something that, uh, articulates that goodness from our founders forward, it's an inspiring story. Um, it encourages people to have this spirit of trying new things and it does speak to the secret sauce of Armanino and that's part of it, try new things. It's okay to fail. It's okay to experiment and we're gonna grow from that. So that was kind of the, the initial beginnings of the book for me.
Dan Hood: (
Very cool. Mary, how did you, uh, how did you come on board with this? What was your thoughts when they, they broached the idea to you?
Mary Tressel: (
Yeah, well, actually I, I volunteered to help, uh, get the, get the words on paper, uh, with Matt and Andy. And the reason I did that, I've been with the firm over a dozen years and day in, day out. I see people here at arm that are empowered. Do they have a new idea, whether it's an initiative to work on the firm itself, or to bring, uh, a great new service to our clients. I'd seen so many people raise their hand and be successful. And so I wanted to be able to share that. And I did as, as Matt Andia both said really encourage the next generation, um, of empowered team members here at the firm. So that was, that was my, uh, excitement behind the book.
Dan Hood: (
Excellent. Well, and it definitely ties into the title. And so I've met, uh, many members of the firm. I've been to a couple of firm events, and there's definitely that feeling of, of, uh, empowerment, uh, for, for just to repeat a word, we were hearing a lot today, uh, for, at all levels. And so, I mean, it really, you, you guys have made a tremendous success at that, and maybe we could do for those who aren't familiar with, uh, the, sort of the history of the firm, Andy, maybe can you give us sort of a quick thumbnail sketch of the, the firm's history?
Andy Armanino: (
Sure. We had some very, very humble beginnings in a little small town called San Leandro, California, two guys that worked at Cooper's lith, my father and Matt's father, Andy Armanino and his best friend, Tom Jones, um, were at Cooper's liveth. And they had spent some time there four or five years each. And they had gotten a little frustrated about the way Cooper's operated and the fact that they couldn't be as close to client as they wanted to. And the fact that the bigger firm didn't have this closeness of personnel that they would've liked. And so, you know, they're entrepreneurs, they had young families, both of them, uh, and they decided to take a risk and step out on their own. They thought they could do it better. Um, they were convinced that they could get close to client and really make a difference in clients' lives and that they could create a culture this closeness with their own teammates.
Andy Armanino: (
So they've ventured out. Um, and you know, the beginning of our book talks about them celebrating as they receive the mail and look for a check in the mail so they can make sure they could pay the bills for another week. And that's what entrepreneurs do. Um, little by little, they recognize that, you know, what we could pay the bills week to week. Now it's time to think about hiring some people. And so they set a goal, um, and their goal is to hire one person per year. And it's interesting, cuz I joined the firm 20 years after it was formed. It was formed in 1969. I joined in 1989, I was employee 22. So they were pretty close to their one person per year. From there, we got a little bit more ambitious. Um, one of the things that our founders really did and the book has the title empowered.
Andy Armanino: (
They were not afraid to empower ideas. They were not afraid to, uh, empower young people to speak out. And so they allowed a unique group of people to join the firm that probably wouldn't have joined a smaller firm like this without being so empowered. And from there we did set some ambitious goals and we started growing and we started growing a little bit more rapidly. We also always have had a history of being opportunistic and looking at both having strong organic growth, which is our core, but we also looked at inorganic growth when it made sense and that was from our founders as well. And that's kind of our articulated throughout the book as well, but we had some very, very humbled beginnings and um, you know, from there we decided to get pretty ambitious on what we thought was possible in this industry.
Dan Hood: (
Very cool. Yeah. It certainly it's come, come, come a long, long way, no longer hiring just a single person every year. I'm um, I know, I know that from matching watch your, your staff numbers climb on our top 100 firm list. Um, I, one of the things I think if, if I'm not mistaken, the book has sort of built around inflection points of through the firm's history, sort of taking different points in the firm's history to talk about, uh, you know, how it's changed and what important changes came around it or what, uh, turning points you took. Matt. Maybe you could tell us a little about some of those, those turning points or inflection points that stand out for you.
Matt Armanino: (
Yeah. I think there are so many it's really, um,
Dan Hood: (
An, an, an entire book's worth, right?
Matt Armanino: (
Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I think, you know, uh, you know, from the very beginning that the first turning point, the first inflection point was just the, the roots of the firm. I, I won't repeat what Andy said, but to have two best friends that were, you know, 25, 26 years old, uh, to start a firm and you know, I've had this conversation with my dad many times over the years when I've asked him, how did you guys think this was gonna work? What was your competitive advantage? And my dad, you know, as Andy said, pretty humble guys would say, uh, honestly, like everybody else had something more than this. They had more, more money. They had more clients, they had more experience. And I said, well, how did you, how'd you guys figure it was gonna work out? And they, I think the honest answer is they just certainly felt like they would care more.
Matt Armanino: (
They care more about their clients and their people, uh, as they grew their team than anybody else. You know, my dad is, is kind of an older Italian guy now. And he, he says things like we knew we'd wrap our arms around our clients and our people. Uh, we knew that every client had a dream they were trying to accomplish and we wanted to be part of achieving those dreams. So just those humble beginnings, just an amazing story, takes a lot of hard work, um, and hustle, but also a lot of luck. And so that was the first big turning point for this firm. I think years later, the second one that comes to mind for me, maybe, I don't know, uh, late eighties, early nineties is the, is the next generation of talent started to come from the firm. Uh, Andy being part of that Brad class, the head of our tax department for so many years, uh, Dave Sheel, who was one of, uh, the managers that Andy, uh, worked with at Arthur Young, before became Ernst and young, they, they kind of migrated into the firm.
Matt Armanino: (
And what changed at that point in time is, is, uh, my dad and Tom were very focused on making a positive impact on the lives of, of clients and creating a, a family feel to the place they weren't super growth oriented. As Andy just mentioned 25 new people in 25 years, it was a very different firm than the last 25 years where today were, uh, over 2,500 people. Uh, these new, uh, folks that joined the firm were entrepreneurs as well, but they wanted to embrace growth and they had a bit of a swagger to them. They thought we could go out and compete for top talent and we could expand the footprint of our capabilities and, and seek out larger clients to, to bring on the best and, uh, brightest talent and give them unlimited opportunity. And all those things were tied to creating more of a growth culture.
Matt Armanino: (
And, you know, it's an amazing thing that what happened is the current leaders of the firm listened to that. And rather than say, as most places, uh, perhaps would would've happened, uh, go back and wait your time. They said, you know, what, what kind of get outta your way and create space for you all to pursue those, those visions, those ideas that you had. I mean, this is the essence of empowerment. Um, it's really incredible cause my dad and Tom at the time were, you know, 50 years old or, uh, you know, they younger than that candidly, they were in their forties to the, the peak of their career to allow these younger leaders to have the space, to, to really thrive and to bring their ideas to the firm. And that was a big inflection point because it that's where the growth trajectory really took off.
Matt Armanino: (
Uh, I would just say the third one that that gets a little closer in time is early two thousands. Maybe it's around 2005 when the firm, um, where we'd always been committed to the idea of being consultative. And we recognized we were in a privileged position of having the client relationships that we had, and we wanted to, uh, help our clients with a variety of, of things that were important to them. It was at this point in, in time that the firm really committed itself to building out the advisory and consulting capabilities of the firm and, and in particular, a real commitment to technology consulting. Uh, our ideas that we idea was we had to embed technology into everything that we, uh, did as a firm and really create a cohesive strategy around becoming our client's most trusted advisor. And that included the C-suite, but really a, an intense focus on the CFO organization.
Matt Armanino: (
We wanted to be there to help them with everything that affected people and business process and transformation. And we, we saw technology as a key, uh, driver to that a real enabler. So that, that was, uh, the third one. The last one, I, I guess I would quickly mention, uh, Dan is that, um, in 2015, we, for the first time expanded our physical presence beyond Northern California, up until that point in time, although we had grown a tremendous amount, we, our only offices were in Northern California. In fact, uh, the badge of honor that we had is we would say we're the largest California based CPA, uh, and consulting firm. And I think you even said that earlier, we don't really say that anymore because we're much more than that today. And we have 24 offices in many states where you have, uh, we serve clients in every single state.
Matt Armanino: (
We have employees in 40 plus states. And so, uh, in 2015, this was the first time that we expanded and we expanded down to Southern California when we merged in, uh, R B, Z at the time. But that was, uh, an interesting point. And I will tell you, there is a reason behind it. It was at the exact time in our firm's history that we engaged actually, uh, pat Lindsay and the table group to work on an exercise of defining our firm's why, right? The purpose of our organization. I remember pat asked us, uh, the executive team of the firm at the time, why do you exist? You think that would be an easy, uh, question to answer took us a half a day. It was not easy. Like, why do you all do this together at this firm when you could all do it someplace else?
Matt Armanino: (
Why do you do it together? And, and the answer was to be the most innovative and entrepreneurial firm that makes a positive impact on the lives of our clients, uh, our people and our communities. And we recognize in putting that stake in the ground and defining our purpose that we could not stay put because the, uh, exercise of, of pursuing that as our highest calling our north star required, that we expand beyond the footprint of where the foot was geographically, uh, at the time that we really had broader ambitions of expanding our firm and making a bigger impact across the country, if you will, into new markets, impacting more people. So that one really shaped the firm, uh, and who we are today in a, in a really dramatic way. But with that said, every day, every day, new inflection points, we hit new, new turning points. I ask every person that joins the firm. Uh, we're a great firm today. What, what do you wanna build? What do you want to create? What's the next thing ahead? And so I think there's more ahead. There's more chapters, uh, and more inflection points ahead of us. I'm positive.
Dan Hood: (
Excellent. We'll be able to add chapters as you go. And, uh, you know, and at the hundredth anniversary, it'll be, uh, many times longer. It'll be a much better book. Um, let me ask you, we you've described, uh, you know, coming up with your, uh, describing your why, and obviously a lot, when you go through that kind of exercise, a lot of this is discovering things you're already doing, right? It's, it's sort of putting on paper a thing you've always felt, and maybe just never expressed quite so clearly, but I'm curious about given the amount of change that's going on at the firm over time. Uh, how many of those changes ended up being part of the original vision, or how much has that vision and mission changed in, uh, over time, you know, from the very humble beginnings to the, uh, 2,500 person plus, uh, national, you know, nationwide reach that you have now, Eddie, maybe you could talk a little bit about that, you know, has that vision changed a great deal?
Andy Armanino: (
Well, it's a pretty funny question because I asked my dad or Tom Jones is, and they'll say their vision was, you know, initially we had to make enough money to feed our families. that was the vision. And it was one day at a time. Initially it, it is kind of funny. The, the two gentlemen that founded our firm are really good people at their core. And I think some of what we ultimately became and are today is because of their goodness. And so they really cared about client. And we've talked about that. They really cared about their team. And there's lots of wonderful stories in the book about caring about team, but they were really pretty simple in their approach. They weren't overly strategic. They just went day by day doing the right thing. And it's for me a really good story. Always when I became a leader in the firm, when I became CEO, I reached out to my dad and I said, dad, how do you know, directionally that you're going the right way?
Andy Armanino: (
And he looked at me and he said, Andy, do the right thing every day, do the right thing for your people and for your clients. And the decisions will be easy. Well, that was kind of their philosophy back in time. And Matt mentioned that ultimately because of our expansion and growth and the number of people we had, we recognized we ne needed to put a stake in the ground and really have a verbal and written commitment to who we are and what our values were. What we didn't want to do was to do a normal kind of mission, vision values statement that a lot of places do because we had done it before for clients. We had worked on this kind of projects before, and they all end up sounding the same at the end. We didn't want that. And so when we did ours with the table group at pat, we wanted it to be unique. We wanted to answer really why we existed, and we wanted to have values that that reflected us. And for us, those values were wickedly smart, courageously connected, empowered of course, positive energy and firm first, make sure that we work together as a team, um, to be firm first, not individual first. And so ultimately we got to the point where, where we are today with those values, but it started out very simply. Dan
Dan Hood: (
It's very cool and very neat. There's a neat, uh, obviously a neat history there that people can, uh, follow as they read the book. We're gonna take a quick pause here, but we're gonna come back and talk about some lessons maybe that, uh, the book and the firm have for, uh, other firms across the, the accounting profession. But for now, like I said, we're gonna step away for a second. All right. And we're back, we're talking about, uh, top 20 firm Armanino it's history. Uh, there's a new book. Uh, we have about the firm and about, uh, its journey and, and how it's become, uh, really well. I said one of the most admired firms, uh, in the profession is both a, an entrepreneurial firm, a pioneering firm in all kinds of area, particularly around technology, but in a lot of other areas as well. Uh, so we're very happy to have Andy Armanino, Matt Armanino and Mary Tressel with us, the authors of "Empowered," uh, which is, uh, if I'm not mistaken is available on amazon.com now, is that right? That's
Matt Armanino: (
Right. Correct.
Dan Hood: (
All right. So, uh, don't run out now and buy it, but as soon as the podcast is over, you can run out and buy it. Uh, but for now I want to ask, um, what lessons maybe, uh, you all think that the firm offers, uh, other firms, Matt, do you have thoughts on the, on what, uh, what people should be learning from Armanino?
Matt Armanino: (
Well, there, there's a ton of great firms in our industry, so we don't wanna be, uh, presumptuous, uh, you know, we, we would learn a lot of lessons from others as well, but in terms of our success and our story, I think the real lesson, the real message that comes across is the importance, uh, of our unique culture of culture in general. And it's kind of an interesting thing, because I think the word culture is almost an overused term nowadays. It means different things to different people. Um, for us culture speaks to the set of, uh, collective values and beliefs that guide our behavior in this business. And it's often, you know, the, the behaviors, you know, that happen when, when no one's watching the discretionary actions of your people when no one else is watching. And I think that that makes up sort of the soul of an organization.
Matt Armanino: (
And I, and I think the book is about that. You know, I have a, you know, a quote on my whiteboard right behind me from Peter Drucker. And it says, uh, you know, you know, culture, each strategy for breakfast. I have that quote and I love it. Cause I'm a strategy guy. I love thinking about new markets and new ways to add value and new solutions and capabilities that we can bring to market. And the reason why I have that there on my whiteboard is cuz when I walk into my office each day, it reminds me about the enduring quality of this firm's success over five decades. It is that it is how it's sort of the humanity in our business, how we treat one another, how we engage and interact. You know, I would say the lesson of, uh, the book for others, um, as you say, is around the importance of, of culture.
Matt Armanino: (
We talked about purpose before the why I think that, uh, purpose is the anchor of our firm's success. It always has been, and it always will be, I mean the overarching, why behind a firm, uh, cast a long shadow. It, it, it is how we become a, we, it's not about I and me every day. It's, it's the, it's the glue that, that combines us. As I said before, um, I think the book talks about the importance of strategic vision of having a strategy and a roadmap and being committed to it and evolving it over time. I think at the heart of that, the book talks about the critical importance of people. People make all the difference. I can't think of a great client, our best clients that I wouldn't say are, you know, aren't great people, organizations. I mean the best companies are great people, organizations, and that's true of our industry as well.
Matt Armanino: (
It's true of our firm. And so that, you know, despite technology innovations and, and all the changes we see around the world, uh, uh, today, uh, people are what make our firm better. They're the ones that engage all of the interactions with our clients and, and people that engage and interact with, with our firm. Um, I think the last thing, you know, the name of the book is, is in power, uh, is not, uh, it's not about power, right? Uh, as a leader of the firm, uh, the message to other, uh, future leaders and, and maybe to, to others that read the book is that if you really are committed to leadership, it's not about, about you having power. It's about empowering others. If, if one thinks that all the best ideas are going to magically kind of come from the top from the CEO or the leadership team and, and trickle down to the organization every day.
Matt Armanino: (
Um, they're, they're probably kidding themself. You know, our purpose is to be the most innovative and entrepreneurial firm that can't happen unless we have a very, uh, viral bottoms up culture where every single person has a voice where they really feel like they can participate in who we are as a firm and making us better in little ways, sometimes in big ways. But that is what allows us to be the firm that we are. And I think that comes across really, uh, as a clear message of the book. And it's probably one of the greatest, uh, takeaways.
Andy Armanino: (
Yeah. One of the things that I, I think is hugely important, particularly to follow to smaller firms that are, are thinking about growing. And I used to do this in front of our group all the time when I stood up, I would tell them, I believe in them. I believe in our team, Matt does the same. He believes in his team. And one of the things, our profession hasn't been great about, we've been very, very conservative typically. Um, and we have a road map, lots of times in terms of progression of people. And we follow that roadmap as a, as an industry. I think we need to break that. I think what we have to do is say, Hey, these people are more capable than we ever think. And we have to let, 'em go sometimes. And that's uncomfortable for leaders and that's what Matt's touching on it. It's not comfortable for most leaders, but you will be a better organization if you empower these people and let them go and let them do some of the things they're really capable of and they will create, and they will come up with ideas that leaders wouldn't have come up with. We just have to get good at sorting through those ideas, hearing those ideas and picking the right ones. And that's something I would point out to firms who are looking to
Matt Armanino: (
Grow. Okay. I can't help myself. I have to say one more thing. I think what you said is a spot on Andy BEC, and I think it's more true and relevant today than at any point in time, uh, in the history of our firm, in the history of, uh, of, of, of humankind, because the, the pace of change today is faster than it's ever been. The world is spinning so fast. I kind of think of clay Christensen in, in his, his books, right? The, the innovator's dilemma and the innovator's solution for those who have read those books. And it speaks to the fact that just being an incumbent in an industry with a lot of the advantages have come with that with brand, with clients, with knowhow, doesn't always serve your purpose. If the industry is changing incredibly quickly, there's a lot of disruption. And so we have to ask ourself, if we were to start all over today, how would we effectively compete against ourself? What would we build? That's new? How would we better engage our clients? How could we add more value? And, and I don't think you could do any of those things. Well, if you don't engage your young people, if you're not engaging those coming up to the business, to ask them their thoughts of how the future of this business is gonna look in a world that's changing so quickly, your, your chances of success go way down. I think that that is what empowered the book is all about.
Dan Hood: (
Excellent. Very cool. It makes a lot of sense in a day when it's, uh, it's getting harder and harder to find and hold, um, you know, the previous models and to your point to previous models in this profession did not necessarily treat particularly younger staff as individual sources of value. Uh, they were something you fit into a, Hey, we, we X number of entry level staff. They will move up through these ranks. And at some point we'll get to learn their names and what they want and what they can do, but probably around the time they become, become, or don't become a partners, the case may be, but that's that model's probably no longer holding. And it sounds like, uh, you guys have long since moved past it
Andy Armanino: (
Absolutely agreed.
Dan Hood: (
Very cool. All right, Mary, I wanna bring you in, uh, uh, to tell us a little bit about the Armanino foundation I'm familiar with, we're familiar cause we've covered, uh, a lot of the things it's done over the past. Uh, well, forever, uh, well, not forever, but since since, uh, uh, for decades, at least. Uh, so I wonder if you could tell us a little about, about its role and how it fits into arm Nino's overall mission and culture.
Mary Tressel: (
Yeah, well, Dan, I think the easiest decision we had when we were making this book, our first meeting, Matt, Andy, and I all agreed that the proceeds from the book would go directly to the Armanino foundation. So every penny goes to supporting community service and grant making. And I think what's special and unique about Armanino foundation is that it's really crowdsourced from our people. So our donors and our partners, our partners, and our staff are the majority of our donors. Um, they make up about 90% of all of the income that comes in for our foundation, but they also determine where does that money get spent. So they pick where we go and we volunteer on our great give day. They pick, where do we go on volunteer vacations, which, because we're arm, you know, we wanted to cool factor for our foundation. Our foundation actually has a committee, um, of professionals who do all the logistics and plan trips.
Mary Tressel: (
We've had people go to Thailand to teach English. We had people go to Puerto Rico and visit with a more global sister firm down in Puerto Rico and help rebuild homes there that have been damaged in hurricane Maria. Um, and we've even had, um, volunteers go to a, make a wish, uh, resort and they go, and they serve food to the families that are there, uh, and helping, uh, their children enjoy a wonderful vacation. So we, we have done all kinds of great things through our foundation, but it comes from, uh, ripples up from below. And we talked about the staff level. We've actually had interns nominate a nonprofit for a grant, and we've made a grant based on intern input. So up and down the chain at Armanino, there's all this, there's a real, I feel passion for compassion at Armanino. And we created the foundation to provide that kind of organizational, um, group to, to get it done, but anybody at the firm can, can make an impact to our foundation.
Dan Hood: (
Excellent. Very cool. And it sounds like it fits in very well with, uh, with everything else we've been, uh, discussing about the firm over the last 20 minutes or so. Um, and, and now of course, everybody has an opportunity to participate in the foundation as well by buying the book. Uh, again, it's empowered, it's out at, uh, amazon.com right now. Andy Armanino, Matt Armanino and Mary Tressel — thank you so much for sharing. It's just some of the details. Again, everyone should go out and buy the book and learn, uh, learn all the rest of the secret sauce. And then again, we will look at the next anniversary, 25 or 50 years for the, uh, volume too. Thank you all for, uh, for joining us today.
Mary Tressel: (
Thanks, Dan. Thank you. You
Dan Hood: (
All right. And thank you all for listing. This episode of on the air was produced by accounting today with audio production by Kelly Malone rate, to review us on your favorite podcast platform and see the rest of our content on