CPA Moms founder Mayumi Young talks about the issues facing women and mothers in accounting, and why innovative approaches like her unique franchise model can help.
Transcription:
Dan Hood: (00:03)
Welcome to On the Air with Accounting Today. I'm editor in chief Dan Hood. You know, accounting firms are particularly concerned about retention of CPAs and all kinds of employees these days, but there's one class of employee where firms have had retention issues for literally decades — nd that's with working mothers, who often feel sort of driven out of the profession. Some of that's been seriously exacerbated in a lot of different fields by the pandemic, and here to talk about why that's been a problem for accounting and how she's helping to solve it is Mayumi Young, she's a CPA and founder and CEO of CPA Moms. Mayumi, thanks for joining us.
Mayumi Young: (00:33)
Thank you so much for having me.
Dan Hood: (00:34)
All right. Let's dive right in. Why does accounting have such problems with retaining women, particularly mothers?
Mayumi Young: (00:41)
Well, I think if I were to really look at the overall issue of retention of both women and mothers, we have to go back in time a little bit and look at the design of the accounting industry. So if we think about it, the results we get are often a function of the design of that structure, that organization, we look at how the accounting industry started. It was fairly well, I would say, male-dominated the time of inception for, for probably most of the history up until maybe the last 10 years or so. The number of men in the profession exceeded women, but now it's starting to shift, so that about, I'd say over 60% are female — but it's still designed for the more — well, the term busy season is a real term inside of at least public accounting, right?
Mayumi Young: (01:34)
And so it's designed for working, getting as much out of the workforce as possible with a limited amount of time, that's there, uh, to maximize the profits of the firms and, and, and so forth. And it not too dissimilar to, I think like the medical industry, for example, you see, you know, doctors and physicians on very long rounds, um, you know, at, at any one particular time, I think it's baked into the culture and I can't tell or speak to what the sort of founders of the industry were thinking or what they had in mind or what their intentions were. I don't think there was any mal intent, um, you know, in terms of the gender, uh, needs, but certainly the culture and value set was established eon to go. And I think we have, haven't done a really great job in the industry of adapting and adjusting as the demographics have shifted where it's now predominantly female.
Mayumi Young: (02:28)
Um, and you know, one of the bigger things, when you talk about values is how important family is to, um, the industry. I can say with personal experience that there's still this, uh, taboo, it's still considered to be, um, a negative thing. If you are a female and you want to start a family, or you are pregnant, or you have, especially small children, it's looked at as a, um, a barrier to growth, a barrier for a career Ascension and so much so that women don't like to share that they're pregnant, um, until the very last possible minute for fear that it might harm their career, uh, at the end of the day, when, you know, and I have stories if you'd like to hear any of them, but there's one story, you know, where there was, um, a woman who was hosting a baby shower that I attended, and she was still part of public account.
Mayumi Young: (03:25)
It was a Saturday afternoon. And she had to excuse all of her guests to say that she had to go back to work, cuz she got permission to take the day off. If you are a mother and you wanna, um, you know, take care of your family and be available to your family, this type of culture, this type of value set is simply not an alignment. And most women know that. So if you look at the percentage of leaders in the accounting industry and how many of them are women, you'll see that probably statistics are not too dissimilar than it was 10 or 20 years ago. And that is, you know, women come into the industry, they get the experie and I call it a one way revolving door. They go in maternity lead and then they don't come back. It's just not designed for the flexibility that these women and mothers need to take care of their families and the, and the needs of those families and culturally, and from a values perspective, it's still just not there yet to appreciate and embrace the diversity of these gender, um, needs and priorities. So I, you know, I think it goes way, way back.
Dan Hood: (04:27)
Yeah, no, I mean, there's no question, right? It was, it was just all established in the thirties and the forties and the fifties when it was assumed that there was a, a woman at home would a woman wouldn't be in the workplace, she would be at home taking your family, which would mean that the men working at the accounting firm would be free of all those responsibilities and could give up their Saturdays. Their Sundays could work 15 hours a day during, during, uh, tax season. And none of that's changed. You talk statistically, uh, you're absolutely right to, to it's well, over half of the profession now is, is women, but well, under half is the leadership, right? I think even at the best firms, it's still around 25% of, uh, of, um, the leader, your ranks or the partner ranks are, are women. And those are at the firms that are sort of considered sort of cutting edge right at the, at the top of the change. Um, but it's interesting, we talk about those statistics, but that story is such a great illustration. It really gives you a sense of what this really means that you had to send the guests home because you had to ask for permission for, for a shower. That's, uh, that's just crazy.
Mayumi Young: (05:19)
Yeah. Time off on a Saturday was not something that was, uh, assumed you, you know, in busy season, what was assumed is that you were available seven days a week, 24 hours a day. And that just simply doesn't fly if you're somebody who wants to have a family and, and make that a priority. Absolutely.
Dan Hood: (05:36)
Yeah. It's uh, it's um, as you say, it goes a long way back and the profession is, is, is being very slow to, it seems in many ways to adapt, uh, to the change in their workforce. I mean, this, literally, this is just what the workforce is now. Um, and you want to, uh, you wanna adapt to that? Um, we've heard a lot over the course of the pandemic and I mentioned a little bit at the top. Um, women have born the brunt of a lot of the, the, the, uh, uh, childcare, the extra childcare responsibilities, the extra child education responsibilities, taking care of sick relatives. Uh, the, uh, study after study, after study has shown, right, that all those burdens have fallen most heavily and almost exclusively on women. And they've been driven out of the workforce, uh, in MAs broadly speaking, have you seen that sort of play out in accounting as well as it, uh, the pandemic having a similar impact here?
Mayumi Young: (06:19)
Uh, I think probably exponentially. So, um, and I mean, I even have gone so far as to say that I actually believe that there's probably cases of mild PTSD all across the, the, you know, especially working moms in the accounting profession because of how much responsibility landed on the shoulders. Not only to your point, um, did these professional working moms become school teachers, they became their own childcare. All their childcare was lost. They now have to entertain these children who now can't do their play dates and go out and, and interact with children. And, you know, I don't know if you've ever been around, uh, a three or a four or five or year old trying to contain and entertain them, um, and still focus on getting your job done at hand, uh, extraordinarily, uh, challenging and taxing. And then, you know, aside from the family requirements and obligations, what we really had, which was unique to our industry was what I would consider.
Mayumi Young: (07:16)
Um, accountants became the government's freely labor. And how do I say that? Or why do I say that is because when, you know, PPP and E IDL and all those new, um, uh, policies were rolled out, it was kind of like the government just sort of jumped out of the airplane and built the parachute on their way down. And, you know, if we were an account, we just had a grab the leg of somebody who was building a parachute. We weren't given a parachute. Uh, when you had a question about how to fill out your, your application, the literally government response. And I know this because I called the 800 number myself , uh, the government response was, oh, you should ask your accountant. And I'm like, I am the accountant . So I think it's just actually, um, you know, the amount of additional learning that happened while it was being figured out and created was extraordinary on top of the actual, uh, you know, normal delivery of services that have always been delivered. Mayumi Young: (08:15)And I can speak really for our community of CPA moms. And, and I'm sure this is, is true for many of the other firms, you know, a, a lot of times we made concessions, we, um, discounted rates, we didn't charge for the additional work, right time, energy, and effort that it took. We actually took breaks to support our entrepreneurs who were struggling right during this time. So the combination was, I, I was really brutal for so many of us. And, you know, there was literally a no ending tax season, I think from March or January of 2020 until truly, and honestly, um, really, I believe it was this tax season where it really came to it's really kind of calmed down and, and regulated again, that's a two year busy season. They, they just have not had any breaks and, and I just applaud every single, um, working professional mom out there for what it really took, um, uh, to really survive this and, and, and be such a value to so many still be in service, still be caring about other people the whole while. Um, I, I just wanna, I just wanna love on all of 'em, so yes, it's been an extraordinary time. Dan Hood: (09:31)Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's, there's a certain, there's a certain pride, I think, in the pro as a whole, and obviously the part of, uh, uh, uh, mothers in the profession as well, that they managed to get through all this be of such help to so many people. But as you say, it doesn't diminish the, the potential for PTSD, um, and just the burden that, uh, that it represents. Um, and the long term, you know, that has significant consequences going forward in terms of engagement and burnout and all that sort, this stuff. Absolutely. Um, I, I wanna turn, because you mentioned CBA moms and, and, and your, your, uh, your community there. Um, and, and I mentioned at the top that you're the CEO and founder of it. Um, and I wanna talk a little bit about that because it, it it's, uh, in its way is going, uh, uh, heading towards answering a lot of these long term problems with the profession and, and, and this, uh, potential long term disengagement of working mothers in CPAs, uh, in the accounting profession. Uh, so why don't you tell us a little bit about CPA moms, what it is, how it came about and, and what it does? Mayumi Young: (10:23)Sure. Um, CPA moms, we're a national virtual 100% virtual accounting and tax franchise. So our, um, job in the marketplace is to find talented CPAs at our mom and supply everything they need in an ecosystem to create and launch their own practices. And so we're here to build CPA practices. Um, you know, how did it get created? Well, it, I founded CPA moms in October of 2008 in the middle of our 2008 recession, um, and launch and, and converted us into a franchise in 2020 at the middle of the pandemic. So I love a challenge. Apparently Dan Hood: (11:05)Didn't have enough Mayumi Young: (11:06)To do, uh, right before I founded it. The, the primary reason, um, is the business I had prior to CP moms. I was coaching entrepreneurs, uh, really helping them with their mindset and, and, and financial empowerment. And what I found to be a consistent problem among entrepreneurs and small business owners is that they really didn't understand the financial aspect of their business and how to use and leverage finances as a tool to grow their business. And I just thought, you know, I used to have coaching clients come to me and, and, and they would show me their books. And I would ask them, did you pay somebody to do this to you? and it was just really frustrating to me that they couldn't get a better result. And I think a lot of times, you know, especially the smaller startup entrepreneurs, they really couldn't afford the professionals. Mayumi Young: (11:51)So they'd hired bookkeepers, and it's sort of, you know, a little bit of Russian roulette there. Um, and so what, what I recognized was back in my public accounting days and this sort of experience of the one way revolving doors, that there's an abundance of talented professional moms that left industry in search of this greater balance F life, um, and ability to have a family. And I just thought to myself, well, what if we could create a scenario where we, we gave them the flexibility that they were looking for? We gave them the ability to work from home and allowed them to use their talents still because nobody just becomes a CPA. You don't just accidentally take like a quiz. And one day you're licensed CPA. It's an enormous investment of time and education and, and, and resources. So what if, um, you know, it was just an assumption, what if we could create an environment for them to thrive and they created an affordable solution for entrepreneurs, would that solve everybody's problem? Mayumi Young: (12:51)And the answer was yes, immediate, and that was the birth of CPA moms. And later we decided that it was the best model for us to grow and support and help. Uh, these CPAs be successful was to convert ourselves into a franchise model, which is, um, what we did in 2020. So, um, you know, we're really here to solve two problems in the marketplace, really empower entrepreneurs with a, a higher are quality, more competent professional, um, by allowing them to work with CPAs and creating an opportunity for CPAs and moms to have both a family and a firm. Dan Hood: (13:24)Excellent. Excellent. That's very cool. I wanna dive a little bit more into, into the model and how it works for CPA moms and, and what their needs are when they're coming back into the work workforce. Uh, but I wanna take a quick break to, to hear a message here. All right. And we're back with, we're talking with Miami young of CPA moms talking about the problems the accounting profession has, uh, in terms of, uh, uh, attracting and retraining retaining, uh, uh, CPAs who are mothers, uh, and in particular CPA moms, the, the franchise model that, uh, you've established to help them. Uh, well, you're talking about how, you know, the investment you put into becoming a CPA, help them to keep leveraging that as opposed to having to make a, a, a once or nothing decision about, you know, can I keep being a CPA? Can I be a mom? You can be both. Um, you, you said you switched this to a franchise model, switched CPA moms to a franchise model and during the pandemic, and I was curious about, uh, why a franchise model, is there something about that that makes it more attractive to, to this cohort? Mayumi Young: (14:20)Absolutely. Well, one of the things that we feel very strongly about is, um, the reason, the reason why we believe it's possible for CPA to have a family and a firm and not have to choose between the two is because there's elements in, in our ecosystem that were designed specifically designed from day one to accomplish that outcome. It's fairly easy. And there are plenty of resources for people who wanna create a firm. If you just wanna create a firm there's resources, if you wanna go have a family that's easy to do as well, but how do you do both? And that's really the formula that we've been working on for over a decade to really perfect. And when we looked at all the possibilities and how we were doing it for years, which included, we actually were an agency beforehand. So we used to provide marketing services for, um, accountants that wanted to create their own firm. Mayumi Young: (15:14)We provided training, but there was always something missing. And in order to provide more of what we wanted, which established, um, you know, a, a much more involved relationship, we started crossing over into franchise territory. Gotcha. Franchise law is very clear and very specific. And, you know, our attorneys basically said, you either have to become a franchise or step farther away from the types of services and offerings that you have. Gotcha. Well, we are so organized around the success of our CPAs in their ability to build, um, practices that we weren't willing to give up some of these, um, services and trainings. And so we decided that the best way to help them succeed is to go all in and to beli build this entire ecosystem, to support them and hold their hand from step one, to, from a, to Z, anyone that understands anything about franchising, a understands that franchising is nothing more than a system, a proven system, right. Mayumi Young: (16:17)And if you know, I've worked with accountants now for 30 years, and what I know is that accountants do not wanna reinvent the wheel. They do not wanna have to figure out how do I do, you know, um, how do I price? How do I get a client? How do they, they don't wanna figure all that out from scratch. And I did that from scratch. It is very expensive to go through the learning curve of building your own practice. So we wanted to shortcut, um, make the path easier and, um, allow other moms to be able to have success going out the gate from day one. And our model has proven that, and we've had great success with our franchisees thus far. Dan Hood: (16:52)Awesome. So obviously that's, uh, the model you've set up, the franchise model is working for your franchisees. Are there lessons you think, uh, from that model or, or from your work with, uh, with, uh, CPAs who are mothers, uh, that accounting firms should be bearing in mind or should be thinking about, and you know, what else they can do to, to, to retain these, to retain these people before they become candidates for working with you, maybe is the, uh, Mayumi Young: (17:13)Absolutely. Um, I think it's really a lot similar than, than a lot of accounting firms understand. And I think what's happening is, um, they're trying to solve for the wrong problem. Um, you get a lot of training and conversations about work, life balance, and I actually have tossed that entire term out the window. If any one understands the world of a working mom or a mother in general, there is no such thing as balance balance implies equal. Um, and there is no, uh, idyllic environment or world that I can envision where one achieves true balance, but what we can achieve. And I think if accounting firm leaders really look at what the problem is that we're trying to solve for, for professional working moms, it really is, um, threefold it's in the culture, the culture, if there can be a true shift in the culture, we have adopted a culture of care. Mayumi Young: (18:15)That's the, at the core of our culture is we care. We, we care about each stakeholder, whether it's the, um, CPA, her client, uh, our team, if we really still true care. And what does care look like? Well, on the court, it looks like somebody is about to go through a, a massive life change. They're about to expand their family. This is extraordinary if you, if you were to talk to a friend and they shared with you that they're about to expand their family, a, a beautiful, um, miraculous thing that happens in, in people's lives, we would celebrate that. So if you really have a culture of caring, everything, all the actions, the ways of being what you say are all a derivative of that culture. If your culture is have your team work as hard as they can, then all the ways of being all the actions, all the things that people say are all gonna be a derivative of that. Mayumi Young: (19:14)So the place to start to actually effectuate change in a firm or any organization for that matter, really begins with the culture that you want in that organization. So if you truly want to attract and retain professional working moms, you have to have a culture that actually aligns with what they need, which is they need flexibility. They need somebody to legitimately care, you know, when their child is sick and they have to take care of that child, they're feeling badly about that, right? And so, you know, how you respond, how they team interacts and views that per person, I is tremendous, um, creating opportunities and pathways that allow professional working moms to achieve leadership roles. Leadership roles are often there. I think there's almost like an understanding in the industry that if you're gonna be a mom, that you can't be a partner, you can't be a leader because being a, a, a mother is often looked at as a distraction and what I believe, and, and I think this comes down to not only changing your culture, but changing your beliefs about working moms. I believe that most working professional, working moms of the most organized, structured and focused professionals I've ever worked with why? Because they have to be, or they'll go crazy Dan Hood: (20:41) or yeah. Or, or their children will be malnourished and they won't face, you've gotta, and they won't be able to do their job and they'll fail everybody. And, and everything's good. Yep. Absolutely. They've gotta be on top of it. Mayumi Young: (20:51)Absolutely. So really shifting the belief system around the value that professional working moms bring to an organization now aligns with the ability to create pathways that allow these women to see a future as partners. If they don't see a future, there, they are probably gonna leave. Cuz they have the same aspirations. They have the same goals to achieve greatness or to be leaders or to be owners. Um, and if there isn't a pathway available to them in a parent and somebody's caring about creating, um, ease around that and respecting their, their, um, decision to also have a family, then they'll leave. They will leave and seek out other opportunities or come to CPM moms and create a franchise and go do their own thing. Um, and so I think that if we look at the culture, we look at the belief systems, um, and we understand that at the end of the day, what they really are looking for is that flex ability. Mayumi Young: (21:49)Um, then what you'll have is extremely loyal, dedicated professionals who care. They're also extremely, um, they value their work. You know, you might get some folks that are coming in, especially now after the pandemic. I mean, I think the I've never seen hiring like this before. We've had a placement group for, for many years and we shut it off, right. As a result of the pandemic, because the, the aspect of hiring has never been as wacky as it's been since the pandemic happened. And I think a lot of that has to do with people now recognize they have a choice. They recognize that their happiness is, is, is much more valuable to them than the money that they get. Um, and in reality, what needs to happen is that we need to have more resources for people who are choosing to work. Cause you have a lot of people right now choosing not to work. Mayumi Young: (22:46)So if somebody is making the choice to work, especially a working mom, often it oftentimes not always, sometimes it is because they need to make money. Oftentimes it's a function of the fact that they actually it's a self expression to them. They actually feel important, significant from being able to provide and contribute that value, um, to make that difference with their are unique gifts and talents and their skills that they've have acquired. And so if we can understand and embrace that these professional working moms, um, want to work, I think we have a leg up on what's going on right now in the, in the pandemic, in the industry of people who don't wanna work. Right. Um, so I, I think it's really just about shifting how we think of about it and think about how we think about working moms. Um, put more women in leadership, actively put more women in leadership because you won't have to work at that perspective. It will come more natural. And I think culture and values trickles from the top down. So those are my 2 cents. I, it's not a complicated thing. It really isn't a money conversation. They're not driven by money. They, they don't need more training. They need, um, an environment that's designed to support and empower them and respect their choice to be a mother. Dan Hood: (24:04)Yep. There's no question. I mean, and what's interesting is that, uh, a lot of this conversation, a lot of the, the focus for firms is on the short term, right? It's on the, we've got an opening now we've gotta hire somebody now and they're not available now because they're taking care of a sick child or wherever the case may be. But the long term play right, is for a lot of these people, for a lot of these women, they're going to be coming, their children are gonna be aging, you know, going to college, reaching an age where they're, where the responsibilities of the mother are. I won't say less but less time consuming maybe right at the point where firms are really gonna need them long term to be take over the next generation of leadership of the firm to, you know, to help the current generation of partner leaders, uh, retire, that sort of thing. You know, it's a long term play. Um, the, uh, the having small children and they don't stay small forever. It's sort of one way to look at it. So as as hundred Mayumi Young: (24:48)Percent Dan Hood: (24:49)As a short term issue and a long term issue, it's, uh, really in a firm's best interest. Um, but for, for if, you know, assuming firms continue to not get it as right as they should, uh, that they're gonna be people interested in, uh, in setting up their own franchise or joining CPA moms, is there a, a place they can go online? Is there a website? They can check it out. Mayumi Young: (25:05)Absolut CPA, moms.com. Dan Hood: (25:08)Excellent. And any final thoughts for either firms or, or, or, uh, women in the profession who are looking at their careers and thinking about this kind of thing. Mayumi Young: (25:19)Honestly, I just feel a tremendous amount of gratitude and appreciation and respect for our profession at large men and women include for what, um, we have been able to offer and overcome in the last few years. And I especially just wanna underscore and applaud all those professional working moms. I just want you to know that I see you. I hear you. I feel you. And I know that this has been an extraordinary time and I just applauded you're doing the best you can just keep going. Dan Hood: (25:45)Yep. Tremendous work all around I to be, uh, to be respected and good for good of you to mention it. Miami young of CPA moms. Thank you so much for joining us. Mayumi Young: (25:55)Thank you so much for having me. Dan Hood: (25:57)Thank you all for listening. This episode episode of On the Air was produced by Accounting Today with audio production by Wen-Wyst Jeanmary. Review us on your favorite podcast platform and see the rest of our content on accountingtoday.com. Thanks again to our guest. Thank you for listening.
